Bill Bass, Software Developer Turned Organic Farmer Joins The Herd Has Spoken

Bill Bass -- Software Developer Turned Organic Farmer

Nearly all of us that spend a lot of time working inside have day-dreamed of quitting the office 9-5 & spending our time pursuing a career working outside underneath the sun, moon, and start. Bill & Brad talk about Bill’s journey where he transitioned from being a software developer to running an organic farm for 10 years. It wasn’t always pretty, and it certainly wasn’t done for the money, but it did allow Bill to live his childhood dream. Brad & Bill dive deep into the state of agriculture today and what we can do as consumers to make a positive impact on the world of agriculture.

Apple Podcasts | Anchor.fm | Breaker | Google Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube

Enjoy the conversation between Bill and Brad

Brad
Bill bass, welcome to The Herd Has Spoken.

Bill
Thanks, Brad. Good to be here. Absolutely. So you're someone who's lived. In a couple of really different worlds as a software developer, who has gone on to become one organic farmer, and before we get into those two pieces of you, I want to rewind back to your to your childhood, and what was your childhood like? And looking back, we're there elements of your childhood that you think created this inherent interest in you across both tech and agriculture?

Bill
100% for the agriculture, I grew up in northeastern Ohio, and the middle of farm country, first toys are for employees, you know, anybody you asked my family, what I wanted to be when I grew up, was to be a farmer. You know, I've always been fascinated by farm machinery and things like that. So that part was very early on, in my childhood, that there was no question about that was that I wanted to be a farmer. The tech came later, once I got, I didn't really touch much tech until high school. And that was like an apple to see, I believe, or he really dating myself here. As if the gray hair didn't give it away to, um, you know, and just found I had a knack for it, and could help other people. And then we went to, you know, apple, basic, and then Pascal. And then once I kind of found that kind of niche where I found something I was good at, and people would come to me for questions and things like that. It's like, once I did, I knew exactly that I wanted to be in software, because that was we had moved out of the country and into suburbia. So farming kind of just took a backseat.

Brad
Well, one of the things I've always appreciated you and we've known each other for a long time bill is I feel like you're someone who's always gone out of his way to try to help other people. And so hearing you describe that, I can't help but wonder if maybe the farming was sort of an innate piece of who you were growing up growing up in Ohio, and appreciating the farm tools and the instruments, and the approach. And maybe tech was something you grew into, because yes, you were interested in it. But it was also something that really allowed you to help those of you that like those around you, because you were so much further ahead of them on the learning curve.

Bill
Yeah, and I think one of the, you know, I heard farming, and he described as one of the most noble professions you can have, because you are you are, you're feeding people. And granted, the type of farming that I ended up doing be an organic vegetable farmer wasn't the farming I was surrounded by. It was all conventional crops. It was you know, back then, organic really wasn't a big thing. But it was all dairy farms and small grains, commodity crops, corn, wheat soybeans. So that's the that's what I really grew up around. It wasn't till much later and starting to pay attention more to food, that kind of organic farming kind of came to be kind of like, Oh, this is a way I can do this. And be able to because the entry point for a lot of other stuff. It's just too expensive.

Brad
Mm hmm. Can we just start to dive into it right away here. So you mentioned the term conventional farming. I mean, that's one of the things that's absolutely driven me crazy for a while is that somehow we've accepted this term. I mean, is there anything at all conventional about conventional farming?

Bill
Other than it's just been done that way for since I guess what, after World War Two, when they started shifting when when artificial fertilizers were cheap, because they had all that production for munitions. So that same nitrogen for explosive that you use for fertilizer, so then it kind of shifted. And you started getting more? it? Yeah, I don't like the term conventional versus organic, either. But it's just one of those terms that have just kind of stuck, and they have certain connotations to them, whether they're true or not.

Brad
Yeah, there's, there's a lot of battles to pick when it comes to agriculture, and where your foods foods grown. And probably the exact terminology that we use isn't, isn't the place to do it. But But I have always, it has always struck me as interesting. And I have to think our listeners will think that's interesting, too. Like, we're basically taking munitions and putting them into the ground, to go into our food and grow that. And that's not even getting into the pesticides and herbicides, that's just the fertilizing. And somehow we think that's normal. Or we have normalized that as a society, in terms of how we've seen agriculture and how we even use the term conventional.

Bill
Yeah. And, again, kind of going off on a tangent with agriculture, though, if you look at it, too. There's very few seed companies, you know, that farmers can buy from those seed companies also. So a lot of the chemicals that are also used the product that are also used on it, and then they also own the other end where they're purchasing the crops. So the farmers kind of stuck in the middle. I think it was JFK was quoted as saying, no farmers, the only people who paid who pay wholesale or let's say they buy it, read sale, sell at wholesale and pay shipping both ways.

Brad
Now the planet I, you know, as someone who grew up in the Midwest and spent two years, in the great state of Iowa, I have a great appreciation for agriculture, and particularly some of the some of the smaller farmers. Even the larger farmers, I think, you know, we think, Hey, you work for a big company, but it's not the people who are actually doing the farming it at the end of the day, who usually are the ones who, you know, have a maybe a warped view or a view we'd like to improve upon. It's sort of structurally in a very compromising position.

Bill
Right, right. And, you know, I don't blame, you know, some of the stuff that any farmer really, there's, you know, so many ways you can kind of get into the, you know, PC versus Apple wars or whatever, it's the same thing for agriculture. It's like, some people are so dead fast that no, you can't do it that way. It's like they're doing what they can, because this is the circumstances that they're under. And if we were if I was, in that circumstances, I would be doing the same thing. So I don't begrudge them for for making a living. It just I typically chose to try to do it in a different way.

Brad
Yeah. And I'd love to get into your into your story here, I think you've got an amazing story, going from Tech. And after 18 years later, you go and start your own organic farm, which is, which is pretty fantastic. And that's something I've always thought was, was really cool about your your willingness to, to go out on your own and, and do that. But before we get into your story yet, I would just love to know, as someone who clearly by now, you know, understands the farming industry extremely well, what is the number one thing that most people don't know about how their food is grown?

Bill
The true cost. I think that's bottom line, people do not understand the true cost of food, when you see how much is at the grocery store versus how much is actually getting to the actual farmer who grew it. And especially once you start getting into the whole, like poultry, and hog farms and beef bots and things like that, that whole scenario is just, I think, kind of messed up, in my own opinion how that's done on a commercial scale. That's the biggest thing. And it's not only that direct cost that's getting in the farmer, but just the long term, environmental cost, the physical cost, the emotional costs, everything around it, there's just so much to it, that we're so used to cheap food that isn't really cheap. And it's only cheap because of subsidies and society, how we've structured things. I think if we if I get it's like we, in some ways, we don't value the food, we eat as much as I think maybe we should. But at the same time again, people are trying to get their kids fed, or their family fed and trying to do it the best way they No.

Brad
Yeah, so So I mean, Socrates is known for saying Let food be thy medicine. So this isn't a new idea of putting healthy, meaningful substance into your body. But yet, somehow we've evolved into this society and and I hate to be on a soapbox, but I think it's true, is where we're encouraging monocultures, we create these, these incentives for for Farmers Insurance. And the easiest way to sort of measure where things are, is to look at things from a monoculture perspective and be able to provide subsidies, if we're looking at one crop and encouraging that. And then, when that happens, so yes, so many of these substances become artificially cheap in the in the marketplace, but then it encourages different organizations out there to then be able to have this food and have it separated out into ways that are very unhealthy to consume. And I don't know that I'm doing a great job of articulating that. But But I know there's a lot of different elements of this where you have certain things that are, like, too cheap in the marketplace. And then as part of it, you're encouraging people to eat, ultimately, unhealthy food. And somewhere in the middle are farmers who are put between a rock and a hard place where they've got to create these these large commodities in the farming world.

Bill
Yeah, and it's, it's tough, it's me, because you got to think of those commodities. It's like the like, you know, the electricity you get, you can't differentiate that from one power company to the other. That may be how they generate it. But the product itself is the same, that's kind of the, that's where the struggle is I think, for you know, like a wheat farmer, you know, corn or whatever is corn or soybeans, their product looks like everybody else's product. So the only way you can make up for it as in volume, and to be as efficient as you can. Whereas a smaller provider, especially if you have the organic label, or can, you know show how yours product is different, then you're able to charge more because now you can show Oh, this is why mine is different than something that looks like everybody else's. And you're really I mean, that was what kind of lead us maybe more into like my story or whatever. It's kind of like you're not just buying the food from the farmer. You're buying. That story, because that's the only that's what we have as a small, smaller producer is that story, I will never be able to compete with the big guys on price. I'm just not going to be I'm just I can't write. So that's the differentiator. I think that the small, smaller farmers midsize farmers can do is it's that story. It's what how is mine different?

Brad
Yeah. So let's, let's dive into your story. And then I think there's a lot of interesting things we can continue to talk about with sort of agriculture in general. But so you went to Michigan State, you got a degree in Computer Engineering as a software engineer, computer science, computer science. Thank you, thank you. And you, you work for 18 years in, in tech, doing all sorts of interesting things. And then one day, you wake up and make the final decision. I'm sure it happened over a long period of time. But one day you make the final decision, say, Hey, I'm actually going back to school for organic farming. You do it. So what what was the cause for you to make that final decision to go back into organic farming?

Bill
It's funny, because it wasn't really my necessary decision to do. The universe put me in the right spot at the right time. Suddenly, when I went into work one day, went into a meeting and walked out of that meeting fired and was escorted. And that was in February of 2011. And no clue. And it's like, wow, okay, and I had known about Michigan State had has an organic farmer training program. But it's a nine month program, very intensive, at least the version that I went through very intense, you really can't have another job. And it's had known about it, but it was like, it costs I forget X number of dollars. But my wife at the time was like you know what you've been talking about being a farmer for so long. Do it we'll figure out how to make it work. And we called them up and they were booked. But the next day, they called me back and said because I was a small, only a cohort of like 15 people with like four instructors. And they called me back and said we had somebody dropped out because they couldn't get financial aid. Do you want to be in and like, yeah, and so basically, I'd met with the director of the program who lived in in Arbor. At the time, I met him the Sunday before the program started on a Tuesday in March. And yeah, so I was in. So everything, again, everything just kind of aligned. And it was one of the most influential periods of my life. The experience I had there was like, No, no other.

Brad
I can't, it's it's amazing how many people you know, this, this happens to where no one draws it up and says, Hey, I want to lose my job for whatever reason. But, man, if it's not a good fit for both parties, then it's so often a blessing. I mean, it's a little cliche, but it's so true, right? I mean, here you are, you've dreamed of being a farmer, since you were a kid in different ways. And now you somehow like you said, the universe opens up to you and you're able to, in 2011 start started a farming farming program, was when you're going through this nine month intensive program. Is there ever a point during that where you're sitting here saying, What on earth? Did I get myself into?

Bill
No, not really, just because again, I think coming from that farm background and the hard work that goes into farming, especially like, you know, I, my experience was dairy farming, mostly. And so I knew what it took. And that, you know, you're baling hay or straw in the middle of summer when it's hotter than Heck, and you just got to go out there and do it. And it's a full time job, something something alive, whether it's an animal, or actually, you know, plant is depending on you, for the most part. I mean, granted, there's a joke to the farmers, we just move stuff around, it's kind of a joke, but we really do is just move some stuff. But it's I didn't at that point, it was just such a good experience to because the program not only taught me how to grow or things organically, but it was also how to run a farm business. Because at the end of this product, at the end of this the program, you had to have a farm plan whether or not you were actually going to go into farming or not, you had to come up with your farm plan about what you were going to do, how you were going to market, how you were going to, you know what markets read you who you're going to get, where you're going to grow? How much were you going to grow? What was your crop plan, so you had to at the end of your product program, you had this nice binder of your plan, if that's what you still want to do. And we have people from all walks of life there were some people that had an organic farm or coming to get like more knowledge on how to do it because they were doing it by the seat of their pants. We had people that wanted to just more be in, in policy, but still wanted to learn about it and what it really took to do this and we got to travel all over the state, see different firms go into Detroit and see some urban farming up the fleet. So it was that's what made it such a great experience is that you got to see things on so many Different levels that focused on whatever you want to do. Some people wanted to be small farms. Some people wanted to be bigger farms, and they had something there for everybody.

Brad
So you entered this program had a great experience all across the great state of Michigan. And then at the end of it you ultimately on a lot of founding honesty's farm. So what was that process like from being being in school? You know, after 18 years as a software engineer, now you're back in organic farming school, and somehow, you're learning the business of things. And you get to a point where you officially launch on your own, I presume, honest honesty, its form, how did that come to? How did that come to be?

Bill
Again, kind of the universe kind of aligned itself, again, because afterwards, in Ann Arbor, there was a firm Development Center, instead of like a business incubator, it was a firm incubator, and it's called the Tallinn Firm Development Center. At the time, I don't think it exists anymore. But it was on the north side of Ann Arbor. And it was their second year, and they had two openings. And I applied and went through an interview process. And so basically, at this incubator you were given land, you were given access to a passive solar greenhouse to build to grow crops to do your seedlings, and equipment and cooler space so that you could store your crops. So basically, they gave you the things you needed to start your farm. And so I was there for two years. So that's how that kind of got started. Again, kind of everything just worked out. And then the rest was just taking the things that I learned. And I had run my own consulting company, when I used to live in Memphis, Tennessee for a little bit. So you know, running a business and, you know, setting up bank accounts, and all of that kind of stuff, I kind of already knew getting a DI n and all those things. So it was really kind of, you know, I had the support of my family. And so we just kind of made it work and started, I really hadn't planned on Starting right after the program, because a I hadn't been working for, you know, 11, nine months, 11 months, or whatever. And so, you know, kind of needed to get a job to build up some funds. But again, everything just kind of worked out, I found a contracting job that I was only supposed to be there for for three months. And I ended up being there for seven years. And they were super flexible about me farming, they knew I farmed, I delivered my shares on a Thursday, they were cool with me taking it off. So again, it just everything just kind of really aligned to get that started off the ground.

Brad
And what did you do as far as land is concerned? Because you know, not everyone has landed, they're ready to farm on how did that? How did that play out?

Bill
Yeah, that's one of the biggest challenges for first generation farmers is getting the land. And like I said, Tallinn I had, I think I could get up to like two acres, three acres, I can't remember what it's been a while. So there was that land. And when I ended there, the fire the we were renting a farmhouse.

Brad
So sorry to interrupt you, but they just gave you this land, they basically gave you an opportunity to lease this at a really inexpensive now.

Bill
Basically, you were sweat equity. We had to give so much time back to Tallinn on their projects, like I how we helped build a walking cooler. So that's how they that's how you kind of like paid for the for getting the land, getting the track layout use for the equipment, like the tractor and implement and things like that. So they gave, they gave that they also had some like marketing and things like that they would have events out there, where we partnered with chefs and you know, I met her a great chef, and they in our area, Rebecca Waldron, who came out and helped us a couple times and created things based off of stuff that we had growing. And so Tilly was really trying to help us get started, and basically did that through sweat, sweat, sweat equity.

Brad
Okay. Okay, that's, that's great. So here you are, you've you found this organization that's designed to sort of help help people to farm along help people like you to be able to farm. And so you've got the land, you've got employment, you've got the equipment, you've got some people you can lean upon. How do you how do you then go about selling your your product and where do you go because it's an organic farm. And like you said, You certainly aren't going to just go to wholesalers, and you're not just z maize to, which is standard corn. But you're you're selling unique products that have a ton of value. And you mentioned chef, so I have to imagine there's some some folks who appreciate organic food from a culinary perspective.

Bill
Yep, a lot of it was just again, Tallinn has some things put in place to kind of like build up interest. I sold mainly through what was called it's called a CSA, community supported agriculture, where basically people are buying shares in the springtime when I have time to market like anywhere between January to March is the ideal timeframe for me because I have less time I have more time to do office kind of stuff and marketing and things like that. And so they would buy shares that then I would deliver vegetables to them throughout the year. Mine was 20 weeks long. So that's how it works. So I would get the money up front, so I didn't have to front all the money. So I would get a bunch of money up front that I could then use to buy my seed, buy my fertilizers that I need and things like that to do. And it was a lot of like in the area, especially around Ann Arbor at the time, very positive pro small farm things. And since then, there's been several that that have done like CSA matching fairs, where we'll have a bunch of farms there. And people can come and ask questions before they figure out who they want to sign up with. So it was a lot of that I did sell at my wife at the time, she was working for mercy Memorial Hospital in Monroe. And I went down there and did an on campus firm stand for them. And then I also did it at the Lazy Boy world headquarters, because again, people knew people there and I just kind of walked in, and was like the sole vendor. So again, it was I, I've done a little bit of firmer stand. A lot of it's just marketing online, local harvest that org, awesome site for anybody that wants to try to find organic vegetables that are close to them, or meats, or whatever. And so a lot of that came just from being online.

Brad
So you're able to carve out this this market. So you have these folks who are supportive of agriculture, who appreciate good food. And I was happy to be part of part of honesty, it's farmed for, for a few years before, sadly, we live too far apart for it to make sense anymore, just from a logistical perspective. But you've, you've carved out this this great set of an audience. But yet you're still I mean, this is this is not something where suddenly you get an audience and you're off to the races. I mean, this is this is an absolute grind in terms of being able to make things work from a financial perspective, the weather that elements. So there's a lot of challenges. And I think you did a great job of connecting with your your customers, through your through your newsletter, which you shared on a regular basis. But I'd love to hear what was it that was the hardest part of of growing an organic farm, I remember hearing a lot from you about weeding and pest control and the newsletters, but I would love to hear from you.

Bill
Yeah, that was I mean, part of the thing too, you know, there's always the joke, you know, it's successful farmers because they have a spouse that works in town, and ended up having to go back to work. So I was I tried doing farming, without going back to work. But I just couldn't. So I was basically from about three or four months in, it's like, No, I have to go back to work for at least part time. And luckily, the place I was at the contracting place I was that was cool with me, you know, taking the time I need or work weird hours, like I would come in after work or I would go in before I went to farm. And then because I lived about 40 minutes away from the farm at one point. But yeah, the hardest thing was just the just the physical toll that it takes on you. Because it will the farm will consume all of you mentally, physically, financially, if you let it. And that's the biggest thing is you the work never ends, you start, you start behind. From day one, you're behind her. And so that's the, the huge challenge is that and then figuring out what is good enough, you know, perfection is the enemy of done. And farming teaches you that in a hurry because it's like you don't have to get every weed. You just got to get most of them. You know, you just got to knock it back enough. And that was kind of the one of the big lessons, but really just the bad grind. Because it's sunup to sundown, because you have a short window of time to do things. And if the weather is not cooperating, that's another added thing to you that you there's so little in your control. And it's just trying to roll with the punches and going okay, this didn't work, what am I going to how am I going to salvage this failed crop to bit still be able to give out some some vegetables or whatever. And

Brad
And what I love about this is how many similarities there are. across every occupation there is I mean, we've had venture capitalist on we've had huge YouTubers, we've had Olympic skiers, and they everyone has a story at the end of the day where it's like, holy shit, there's so much to do. There is more to get done than I physically have time to be able to do. And so you need to figure things out. So my question for you is kind of how did you personally feel like you were able to grow during this time? Like what did you learn about yourself and what your priorities were as you're going through this? 

Bill
I think again, it's the not being the perfectionist anymore. And being okay with just letting things go and knowing when to kind of cut your losses and just try to figure out there is one of the Eliot Coleman's one of the biggest proponents of organic farming, he's written a lot of books. And one of his things was about, no matter how much you have to do, you have to take one day and seven for yourself, or your burnout. And I tried to do that as much as I could. Some days better than others. But ultimately, I think then it also may be I kept, you know, asking the question, it's like, do you want to keep doing this? You know, at the end of every year, you know, that asking a farmer if he still wants to do it, you know, in the middle season, or towards the end, it's like, No, no, but then January comes and you're like, Alright, see, cow, what's coming in this year's gonna be different, I'm gonna do this, this different, and, you know, hope springs eternal. But I think it was just kind of like, as I kept going, it's just kind of like, how do you reevaluate what's really important?

Brad
What you can, what can you do, and being okay with, fitting into that, it's, you know, there's only so many hours in me to do things, right. And you mentioned, you know, cutting your losses a minute ago. So, at the end of the day, you know, you, you have made the decision to move away from honesty, it's farm, after decade, which I have to imagine is a really tough decision. But you, you, you're throughout, you're really working two jobs, right, where you wanted to be a farmer so bad, you were doing it, you're creating a fantastic product, adding a ton of value to your customers, and to society. But, man, it came at a cost, right? I mean, there's, there's the, you didn't have time to take off. It wasn't the money that was drawing you into organic farming, by any means, but like that created even more of a burden on you, as well. So walk us through a little bit about your decision to ultimately step away from from farming and, and maybe the internal, you know, conflict that that existed in terms of trying to come to that decision. Or maybe it was maybe it was an easy decision at that point.

Bill
No, it was not, and it wasn't made until January of this year. That it's like, you know, we just talked about it to it, you know, it'll eat you up and you have to, you know, there's all this hard work that goes involved, no matter whether you're in love to ski or venture capitalists or whatever, there's all this work and it's, you know, which sandwich Are you willing to eat every single day? You know, Mark Manson's the big author of mine that I really like, you know, it's kind of like that, what are you willing to suffer through? And I had to keep asking, I really sat myself down and asked that tough question is, are you willing to suffer through this and more because it is it's Can you do this anymore, and farming just like anything else, you really have to be 100% committed. And as soon as you're not, it's, it just chews you up and spit you out. It was like, I just couldn't physically or mentally do the things that I wanted to do, even though I'm like, Yes, I'm going to do with things. Last year, you know, I expanded how many people I was referring to, and had a plan for moving forward and put up a passive solar greenhouse and had all those plans, but my heart really wasn't in it. And it's like, it was affecting, you know, me on a daily basis, because I live on the farm. So I get to see that every single day. When I did my shares, I delivered to 30 I packed packed 30 shares a week, and between five and seven items, so every time I was putting items in there that I was not happy with, I had to think about i've you know, to me, this is me being the perfectionist is I'm letting these people that gave me a lot of money down and I did that for 30 shares five to seven different items usually not being happy with the product that I was giving out plus then having to go deliver it again. So it's like I just can't do that anymore. And it's it's not feeding my soul there's some more emotion around the farm because it was supposed to be you know, my forever home and this is where I was going to retire and that dream kind of got squashed but mildly and so that was the other thing it was like living living here when that dream wasn't here anymore. And it was just like No, I just I cannot do this anymore and it's not I didn't want to be a quitter you know you're not you say you're gonna do something you're supposed to do it Don't be a quitter. Just persevere through it, you know, hard work through it. And I was just like, no, this is not feeding my soul. It's not doing me any good. And no matter how much I liked having my tractor and and doing some of the farm, you know, that kind of farm stuff, the being on the tractor, my tractor time and moving dirt around that way and just that kind of stuff just wasn't enough. And there was you know, there was plenty of people that I've met along the way that made it difficult to to when I can give out certain vegetables and people are like oh my god You made my day or just having them come out and visit the farm and see where they're doing. You know, there was those things but there were that wasn't often enough. To kind of like, feed the soul to kind of like, Oh, yeah, I'm doing this for a reason. And some of that was probably just, again, me trying to work through jobs and maybe not being able to do some of the more connections stuff that I would would have liked to do. But at the, you know, so it was just like, it was not an easy decision. And I was finally like, No, I just can't do it. And it's okay to say, I can't I don't want to do this anymore.

Brad
Yeah, I think we all need to be willing to listen to ourselves, and to cut ourselves a break. So whoever's listening to this, like, Hey, if you're, if you're going through something, that you've put a ton of work into a ton of energy, and it's just not happening. And it is not pleasing to you anymore. It's okay to let it go. And to think through it. And with your experience, Bill, it's it's really interesting to me, because I think about the Jeffersonian agrarian world, at a vision for America, and so much of that, especially today, it feels more of like, an ideal, or a mindset or a philosophical approach to life that we're trying to pursue. Like as, as an organic farmer, it's like, no, it's so good. And it's so pure, but at the same time, like, there's a lot of practical constraints that are getting in the way. And if all the dominoes are lining up, it's like, hey, that's, that's great to pursue it. But, you know, it's almost more of an ideal in my head, now than then a reality in terms of like the small farmer that that's trying to make it today. And I'd love to hear your take kind of maybe moving away from your individual story and really asking, Hey, what does your experience with honesty, it's farm tell us about the state of the individual farmer and the individual or organic farmer today? I mean, where do we where do we go? And how feasible is it to really be able to farm at that level?

Bill
Uh, you know, I think it's kind of it goes to, it's, you know, it's like, who do you listen to sometimes with that, it's like, oh, we need to, you know, feed, feed so many mouths, and it's like, you have these big huge monocultures and things like that. So if that all goes away, if something happens, like data, famine, and an Ireland, you know, you have bass famines, and things like that any famine is usually about distribution more than anything else. I don't know, it's the small farms, it's just for those people who have a dream, to farm and grow food for people. It's trying to support them as much as you can. And it's not for everybody, and because it is more expensive, typically. But again, are you Where do you want your money going to some nameless, faceless Corporation, or maybe it is somebody that, you know, that's, I would much rather spend my money with somebody that I know. And I know how they're growing my food. And I think that's, that's what we can do can we can small farmers feed the world, they used to, you know, it's, it's going to be more costly, potentially, you know, disease and impasse and things like that, whether you're talking about plants or animals, it's usually comes down to density. So if you Group A lot of things together, you're going to have problems and it's splitting it out as being more more diverse.

is usually a good thing. So that's kind of can it Yeah, I think it's gonna be a mix. I don't think there's one size solution that fits all. Here, talk, you know, like, oh, vertical farming and things like that in the cities. I just wonder how cost effective that really is. And most of the time, I have not seen them grow food. You know, they might grow salad. Yeah, you're not gonna we're not gonna survive on salads and grant we're, you know, a grain or you know, beans. All right, let's do beans, or lentils or something like that, when they can show that it's cost effective to grow inside, doing those things versus some specialty crop, then, okay. But there's trade offs, no matter what.

Brad
There's, there's progress that's being made. So what I'm hearing you say of like crazy, creative ways to grow, you know, maybe specialty crops, maybe leafy, leafy greens. I'd love to hear for your advice. As someone who obviously knows the industry extremely well, what can what can we do here as part of the MuskOx Herd, so talking about from a consumer perspective, to do things differently, to make a positive impact on the farming industry. And then of course, the farming industry is interconnected to the environment in our in our society as a whole. So what can the average consumer do?

Bill
The average consumer can support the small local farmer by going to farmers markets, certain grocery stores also will have food from various farms, local farms that's been a lot bigger since I've started even. And so it's just the averages. Know Your Farmer Know Your Food, and just be a little more thoughtful in what you're consuming, looking at those labels and things like that, and not just looking, oh, well, this is, you know, 50 cents cheaper, so I'm gonna buy this instead. It's really just being more informed. And, uh, granted, there's a lot of things and, and even, you know, organic is a continuum, because you have completely convention on one side completely organic, other and you have that middle point. And you'll have those organic people that do, you know, have conventional, but do just enough to get over that line to be officially organic. Like I was never certified organic. I was I grew organically, but I couldn't call myself organic, because it's so costly to get that certification.

Bill
Yeah, costly in the actual certification, but also in that the paperwork that you have to do, which I understand. That was my always thing is like, No, I'm not organic, or I grow organically, it's like organic without the paperwork, right kind of thing. But it's a way for the consumer who doesn't know to at least have an idea that when it says this, these, these things are guaranteed.

Brad
See, one of the things you mentioned that I'd love to hear more about is like knowing your farmer knowing your food, but a lot of folks don't know what to ask. So for folks that are going to a farmers market that might have a mix, right, maybe some of its more, again, I'm gonna say quote unquote, conventional, and some of its more organic, and some of its in between, what are the questions that people should be asking their farmers to understand what food is done in the right way?

Bill
Yeah, I think it's just about you know, a Where's your farm? Can they tell you what, you know, where it is, you know, how did you, you know, how did you grow this?

Or, you know, why did you grow with this variety versus, you know, something else, to try to glean a little more of whether or not they just don't know, because there's plenty of market vendors that you'll go go to some farmers markets, and you see had a lettuce wrap and plastic, no farmer fruits are going to do that, you know, small farmer, a big clue growing, you know, bananas, you know, local farmers are not growing bananas. It's kind of, if you see things that are sort of out of season, again, I think learning that as a consumer is also very important to know what's in season, when, like, you're not going to get you know, winter squashes, now, you're not going to get pumpkins and, and acorn squashes and things like that now, because this is the time for him. It's still a little early for some vegetables. So that kind of gets more of that it's just kind of like just having a conversation with that farmer to just say, Hey, how are you growing these things? You know, How's this? How's the drought affecting your crops? What are you doing to mitigate that? or How are you dealing with, you know, weeds or something like that, just to kind of understand what they do. And really, if you get the chance is to visit one of these firms. You know, a lot of them do want volunteers, and spend a day out there, especially in the summertime, when there's everything needs to be done. To see what it takes is I think that's kind of what we've forgotten about too, is really understanding where, where our food comes from, and how it's grown. And the same thing with animals. Knowing that whole process.

Brad
Yeah, sticking with the idea of, you know, fruits, vegetables, and crops that were growing in the ground. I know one of the huge issues that's very acute here in the Midwest, but really, globally, is topsoil. And my understanding is that for all intents and purposes, all crops, it's like 95% of crops need topsoil, in order to be able to grow. But that over the course of the last 150 years or so, we have destroyed 50% of the topsoil that exists out there in the United States, Midwest, there's like 35% of the Corn Belt has lost its topsoil completely. So what is what is say about the state of agriculture today,

Bill
I think it's just more indicative of just us as humans, that we tend to do that, we tend to be a little more, I guess, short sighted in some ways, and that it's a resource that's been there. So it's always gonna be there. And until we have to worry about it, we don't. But that's kind of one of the things like with I really enjoyed about like organic farming, it's trying to build up that soil to build that back naturally. And I think that's where the small farms where you not only have you know, you're growing the fruits or vegetables, but you're also integrate some livestock into it, because there's that whole process. It's not just because the reason why there's so much topsoil is because of all the bison and you know, Buffalo that were out there that grazed for, you know, 1000s and 1000s of years that built up that soil. So to think we can just spread enough fertilizer to make up for it. I think that's the thing, you know, that we can't, and granted without this precision Ag and things like that, that they're only putting exactly how much fertilizer they need at each spot as they're going through the field with computers. and things like that. At the same time, it's still you're not really regenerating, you're not, it's one of the basic tenets of organic is really, if you're feeding the soil, if you feed the soil, everything else is going to help take care of itself. And we kind of gotten away from that.

Brad
But it's it's exciting to hear about a lot of these programs that exist in terms of being able to help support farmers and CSA is community is always forgive, it's supported or sponsored agriculture supported, thank you community supported agriculture, these things make a huge difference. And, and for those of you who again, don't aren't familiar with him, I'd strongly encourage you to check it out. Like Bill said, local harvest is a great resource to help you through that. And one of the things that I found fun, just from a consumer perspective is you get these local, you know, fruits and vegetables. A lot of times you're not even familiar with these things. So you get them you're like, what the heck do I do with this, and then see a Google some recipes are good folks. at the farm. In my case, you know, honestly, it's farm provided these great recipes. They're like, Oh, this is delicious. And it's local. And it's super fresh. And you know, it's not surprising that it's really good. So that I think that's another benefit of being able to work with a local farmer is you're just able to explore new things that if you just walk into Walmart, you know, every week and you get the same thing, you're just not exploring your your, your local food in the same way.

Bill
Oh, great. There's many things that I didn't realize until I went up through that farmer program about things that I that I really enjoy now that I never would have known about or even probably tried. So it is definitely a CSA is a definite change in mindset, because instead of, hey, I want to make this today. These are the things ingredients, I need it, here's the ingredients I have, what do I do with them? Right? And so it's, it can be a fun challenge to kind of go, Okay, what can we do with this, especially after that sixth, or seventh or eighth week of getting zucchini?

Brad
Yeah, no doubt about it. One of the things that I, I've heard a lot of challenges about is also just taking produce that's grown very far from you. And even if it was grown organically, and then the impact of having to ship that produce from a farm and let's just say farm in California, to someone who's in New York City, obviously, you're looking at very long transportation chain, and you're looking at environmental impacts associated with that with that transportation as well. So for you, as you're encouraging people to make different food choices. I mean, how should we think about the importance of eating local versus the importance of eating organic?

Bill
I think it's better to eat low in local first, organic if you can, if you choose. I mean, some people think it's, it doesn't matter. And that's fine, too. But I think local, just because if you think about it, the crops that are grown for shipping, are grown for shipping, they're not for taste, everybody knows tomatoes, that you see in the grocery store in January, are just like cardboard, they have no flavor. Take one of my tomatoes, you're familiar with them, you know, and the peak of the summertime, when you have a tomato, there's no there's no comparison. And that's what you get when you eat local and in season is you get these things that are you know, many times I picked those things that morning when you got delivered that that afternoon or evening. So you're getting it as fresh as you can almost possibly get it. And that's the taste is so much different. That's the thing that I think like when I was little my grandparents garden, and I remember in the wintertime, eating the fresh, frozen green beans that I you know, helped can or freeze and the corn and how good it tastes compared to anything out of the canner bag.

Brad
Yeah, when you when you eat local, you're eating food that's more fresh. You're eating food that is more nutritious, and you're eating food that just tastes better. I mean, it really is a huge powerful thing when you when you think about it, and you simplifies it. Who doesn't want to eat food that tastes better? Right, right. Oh, but listen, though, you've been extremely generous with your with your time here and I appreciate you letting us you know, kick around some of the big themes and big trends in our organic farming here. But before we let you go, I'd love to hear. Just a couple more quick questions for you. So first, what is your biggest pet peeve?

Bill
When people are eating when they're talking to me on the phone or on zoom calls? I do not that some about that. That is my biggest one. I just I almost just want to hang up and say when you're done eating call me back. Like that just irks me to no end.

Brad
Got it. You know what I gotta admit, I was eating Literally eating cashews on a zoom call on Friday. And I was like, you know, I probably should turn off my camera. But then I didn't, there was something about it where I was like, well, there's just it's just, it's just not since would you have done it? If you were in person? thing? Would you have eaten? That meeting with? I would have been maybe that just really poorly of me, but I appreciate it. And you know what, I think I'm gonna change my behavior, basically. I appreciate that. Um, final question for you, what is the greatest piece of advice you've ever received?

Bill
The greatest piece of advice I've ever received, is to have compassion for myself. And I think that's something that everybody needs. I don't think we do. Our society is not built on doing that. And I think that is one of the key things that we all need to learn to do. And especially men have a say in it, we need to be more compassionate to ourselves.

Brad
I think that's I think that's so true. Because we're doing so many things. We feel so many obligations to other people. And, you know, I've heard it said before, I mean, what if we actually prioritize, giving to ourself the way that we prioritize, you know, giving to other people or commitments we make to other people. And I think that's a great challenge to folks who are listening here as well. So what's one commitment you can make to yourself? And absolutely follow through on? And I think that is compassion is being able to have time for yourself to think about what's really important to you. Agreed, agreed. Well, listen, Bill, I think there's a ton we've learned here and really appreciate you sharing your story here, in terms of moving from from Tech into organic farming and the crazy world of feeding an ever growing world. And the challenges and the hope associated with that. Well, we we certainly appreciate your time. We appreciate you being part of the MuskOx Herd. And then thanks for joining us.

Bill
Yeah, my pleasure. Anytime. Anything for you, Brad.