The Herd Has Spoken Podcast With Money Man, Kris Kelly. Episode 11

On episode 11 of The Herd Has Spoken Podcast, we hosted Kris Kelley. Kris is managing Partner of Legacy Ridge Partners and owner of a Polaris dealership, knows a thing or two about money having been entrusted to manage billions of dollars in investments. In this episode, Kris and Brad talk about the importance of long-term thinking, handling adversity, and how to leave the safety of a corporate job and pursue something on your own.

Enjoy the conversation between Kris and Brad

Brad
All right, Chris. So in so many ways, you are the poster child for muskox, you are a Colorado native, you were in the Air Force, you went to college, you went to MBA, you went and worked very successfully in the corporate world. In fact, you got to a spot where you're the head of energy or co head of energy for Janice, investment management, which is one of the largest, most respected Investment Management funds out there. And somehow, someway, you left there, and you've now created your own thing successfully on your own. So there's a lot to unpack here. But But I want to start by rewinding to that moment where after you, you'd graduated from college at a respected University, but not one that's particularly well known Regis collagen in Denver, you were working, you're working in a job. And my understanding is, you hadn't yet gotten into business school, and you more or less had a boss or someone at the company tell you that you weren't going to get into business school, and you weren't going to amount to anything. So what I want to kind of unpack that story I might have might have screwed it up a little bit, too. I want to know how that moment in time, impacted your life.

Kris
All right. Well, it's funny, you bring this up, because I remember you loving this story when I told it and lead back in probably 2007, or maybe even 2006. So let's leave it. Yeah, I know, for better or worse. So lead. It's it's the leadership development program at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. We're Chris and I actually met back in back in 2006. So anyways, yeah, please go ahead. Yeah. So, you know, it wasn't explicitly told to me that I wouldn't get into business school and wouldn't amount to anything.

But, you know, when you're fired from a job, trying to go to business school, and amount to something, it's, it's very implicit, what they're trying to tell you.It was fine. You know, it was an early job. Unfortunately, that's not enough at this point in time, and I wouldn't do it anyways, I like kind of doing my own thing. But yeah, you know, it was just it was it was a decision. I know, he regrets but, you know, somebody like me, who, you know, Michael Jordan's on a 10 for using all these slides to, to fuel himself, I'm probably a two or three, but I remember these things, and I use them, you know, for better or for worse, probably, for worse, to kind of drive myself and so you know, I remember it clears day, I remember when it happened. And, you know, I'm gonna feed on it probably for the next 30 or 40 years until I'm dead. So

Brad
Well, I think there's something really powerful about having that chip on your shoulder, right? And that you feel like you've got something to prove whether it's to yourself or, or to someone else. And I'm curious, how do you think that has fueled you? over the over the years, and it sounds like it's not a one slight thing for you, it's always feeling like there's some slight that like Michael Jordan, you can find a way to, to derive motivation from that?

Kris
Well, I think a lot of it's when you just when, you know, you just grow up as a middle class person, like you, you, you definitely realize that things are not owed to you. And, you know, a lot of times when you grew up in that environment, I don't know if you experienced the same thing. But when you grew up in that environment, like you, you kind of grow up thinking that there are just people better than you, you know, there's people that are smarter. There's people that, you know, just have a much easier, better path. And so you're kind of, you're kind of born into this underdog mentality. And then when you have the opportunity, like you, when I did to go to a world class school at the time, the number one business school in the world, and you meet a lot of these people that had much better paths and live the first 2526 years and you realize they ain't no better than us. Like it, just it just it really just fans the flames of Okay, I am still the underdog because I didn't have all these advantages, but I'm not at a disadvantage, like those are different things like I maybe I was, you know, the first 1516 years of my life, but the playing field is level now. And now we're going to get after it because you should have been here. I should not

I've been here. And so that's a difference, like there's something different in our makeup.

So the but the dark side of it is, is I'm probably up at two or three every morning, and I can't get back to sleep because all I'm doing is spinning these wheels in my head on, on how I should be working or doing something to try and get past these people, which is the unhealthy side of that?

Brad
Well, one of the things I like to say is our greatest strengths are also our greatest weaknesses. And this feels like, you know, target hitting is to be the arrowhead in the middle of the target on this one, because it's like, yeah, it is awesome that you're always thinking and trying to figure out a way to get better, and to beat the competition. And in your world in investment management, that's pretty black and white, right? Either I'm beating benchmarks, or I'm not in the process to get there is really gray. But you've got that constant pressure on yourself to do that. And I've got a guest that's even, that's even harder now for you to, to be comfortable with that. And to not have that self doubt when you're now out on your own essentially. Right. So I and maybe that's a good place to start here. So legacy Ridge capital, invest manager for you own, you started. And you did that after years and years at Janice, and you climb to sort of the top of the mountain as some people would say you probably wouldn't put it that way too humble to do so. But you're you're the CO head of all energy investing, and through different ways, you ultimately decided to go on your on your own to do legacy Ridge capital. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that journey. But also, how does that make you feel differently today? I mean, do you still experience that self doubt? Or that feeling like, yeah, maybe I shouldn't be here that you referenced earlier. Yeah.

Kris
Well, the path to get here. So I think I've always wanted to have my own investment firm, I have a partner now, but to have started my own investment firm. And so I figured that was going to be my path at some point. And I actually, I think it was 20, early 2016, I had actually submitted my resignation, from Janice, and I wanted to go start my own fund at that point. But my wife seemed very nervous about doing this. And you know, my wife bred so for her to get nervous is very out of character. And so I pulled back, they were nice enough to let me come back and rescind my resignation. But then two years after that, the guy I was working with, I was the assistant Portfolio Manager on the contrary in fund, and he left, and I was passed over to actually get that job as the portfolio manager of that Fund, which, you know, I think I would have probably enjoyed running that funnel for a few years. But frankly, I was fairly indifferent between running that fund or coming to terms with the company, and leaving to do my own thing once again. And once again, they were they're, you know, gracious enough to, to let me leave in the middle of a merger, which gave me some more financial flexibility. And so I yeah, if my memory serves correctly, that was probably September 2017. So I left then, and it took me three to four months to kind of set up my own fun, there's a lot of legal paperwork, a lot of process that goes with it. And, and so I did that, and it's still in the early stages, it's very small, there's only a couple of investors. You know, we invest in energy, we invest in airlines, very specific niches that are extremely out of favor right now. But we don't change your stripes, you know, we have very kind of deep core beliefs on how to invest in what to invest in. So, you know, it's going to be a long road. As a person I consider a mentor of mine told me, you know, this is a marathon. So, you know, we've got 2423 miles to go in this marathon. So we're in the early stages, but it's been a lot of fun. But it's also going back to what we just talked about, it's another thing that you know, getting passed over for a job that I was kind of okay, getting passed over for but, you know, I think I was probably a bit too, this morning thinking about that one. You know, they just keep on coming as far as the slides go, but that's okay.

Brad
So I'm just just for everyone listening. What does it mean to be a contrarian investor and what does it mean to be a highly concentrated and

Kris
yeah, Yeah, that definitely depends on if you're taking the marketing angle or if you're taking the, the, the actual core definition. You know, some people like to label themselves as contrarians, and then they they own a bunch of tech stocks at the top of their portfolio. For me, it's it's, it's, it's just, you know, really the process, the investment process starts with looking for things that nobody else wants to own. And that's, that's just the first cut, you know, because if nobody wants to own it, the one thing you can pretty much guarantee yourself is it's not overpriced. It's true, it is there. Nobody wants to own it as the guy I used to work with Dan Kozlowski used to say it's an empty trade, like there is nobody standing there wanting to buy that from you. That's a good place to start. Now, you still have to do a lot of work, you had to figure out if, you know, there's been some companies that have gone to zero, obviously. But just the core nature of being contrarian is, you know, you can kind of just start by looking at the chart of a stock. And if it's straight down, all everything else is straight up, when you're looking to buy it, you're probably pretty contrarian.

Brad
And is that isolating to you in some ways? So I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. Yeah. And you've sort of left the big world of investment management with larger companies, you're on your own. And now you're looking at buying things that nobody else wants. So there's probably not a lot of coverage on those is, is that ever isolating to you?

Kris
It's very isolating. And part of the reason I brought a partner on was it just got, I wouldn't say lonely because I'm okay. being lonely. It just, I, I knew from having, you know, studied a lot of new businesses and a lot of startups, I knew that the odds of success for a startup are significantly higher when you have a partner, because you're responsible to somebody else, you have somebody else as a sounding board that you can speak with, it's in the trenches with you. So that's why I brought on a partner at the start of this year. Because I could just see, like, while I was doing, okay, not great, but I was doing okay. There was a question in my mind, if I could just do this on my own, always going against the grain for the next 20 years. And the second that, that crept into my mind, I knew I probably needed to bring somebody else on as a sounding board somebody else to, to help keep me sane. Yeah.

Brad
And one of the one of your greatest strengths, I feel like is you're very steady, right? You're a very even keeled guy, at least externally. I know, there's a deep fire that burns inside of you, which is, you know, allowed you to be so successful, but you are very even keel. And I have to imagine that one of the downsides of concentrated investing, is when downturn happens, when downturns can happen in that industry. And oh, by the way, it's 2020. And my understanding is you're concentrating in airlines, and transportation and energy, who have had a terrible, terrible year, when you look at their indices and how they're doing. And my question for you is, how are you able to hold true to your investment theses, during these times when these are industries that are getting battered, and bruised? And of course your investors know, this is what you're going to invest in, and you're an expert. And I think you've been really smart about that. But how do you hold tight to those beliefs because it's it's isolating. other industries are not having so much challenge during these times everyone has certainly had a year but there's a lot that's going on. And I have to imagine it's not easy to hold on tight to the resolve in your approach.

Kris
Yeah, this has been a tough year. And it's it's exponentially tough because we're not a long short fund we have the ability to short stocks. But we don't be just because I personally don't like the risk reward of shorting. Not to say we will never short but

Brad
so to ensure shorting is when you are predicting that the stock is going to go price is going to go down and you could profit off about

Kris
correct so we have no we we almost have no ability to hedge our portfolio outside of holding you know cash and large amount large amounts of cash, which we often do but and so this this year has been challenging because we were long coming into the year we were long, a little bit of airlines, mostly energy. And then you know, obviously just got our faces ripped off by the corona but Coronavirus, like a lot of people did. But we were we were, when you focus on such a narrow space, I think you have a much better sense of the underlying value of what you're buying. And so, you know, in the March, early April, when the bottom was really falling out, and, you know, like, there seemed to be no bottom in sight for some of our stocks, just because of liquidity reasons, you know, we were able to buy a lot of things that, you know, were up five, six fold from there, now, we weren't able to put a ton of capital to work because we, we, we didn't have a ton of cash, but you don't have to put a lot to work if you can get five to six times your money in the course of six months. And so it's, again, it was a matter of being focused on what we were looking at, and being nimble, and then essentially just not having a pulse. In because the fact of the matter is, if we were wrong, and the world didn't pull out of this, we were gonna have a lot bigger issues, then then then losing some money is so I think kind of embracing the fact that there would be brighter days ahead, you know, really allowed us to take advantage of the fear that a lot of people had, and, and the irrational just dumping of some of the stocks that we own back at the end of the first quarter. But it's it's hard this is, this has been a tough year, I would actually say last year was probably even harder, because performance on a relative basis was not good. And, you know, this is like, tippy top 9899 bubble type of environment. And so everybody now expects the stock market to go up 30% every year. So if you don't keep track with that, they think you're an idiot, which you know, very well could be the case, but time will tell. But those are the harder environments for me, because, you know, you get text messages from your brother congratulating himself on all these stocks that he's bought that he knows nothing about that have gone up 50% and, and, you know, you have nothing to counter that with because all your stocks are flat to down so but that's the, you know, that's that's also the, the key hint that we're, we're darn near cycle top here on all these on all these bubble kind of Robin day trader, you know, tech stock, IPO specs, all these things that are, you know, now popular, popular in the lexicon yet, you know, weren't popular six to 12 months ago.

Brad
One of the things that I I've always admired about you is you're very patient guy, and you're not a lazy guy in any way. So I think a lot of people sometimes think of patience, and think of sitting back and doing nothing. But you're very much someone that will work their ass off is constantly reading, constantly trying to understand things a little bit better, every single day. And I'm curious, what is your time horizon when you're looking at these investments, because I have to imagine that's actually a pretty tough position that you're in, because you want to look in the long run. But at the end of the day, you have clients, and if their contemporaries are up 5070 100%, and you're down, 20, down 30 or flat for too long. At some point, people are gonna start scratching their heads or having hard conversations with you. So how are you able to set things up where you can have that longer term view and what is long, long term to you?

Kris
Well, long term to me is till I die, you know, unfortunately, it's not like that to, to my investors, and I don't expect it to be either, but, you know, I, the way I laid it, lay it out to my investors is if you want to just on a three year period, that's fine. I still think that's too short. Five seems much more respectable to me. And 10 is probably the right amount of time because 10 is kind of a full cycle. But 10 years is like unheard of in this business, you know, people are buying stocks at you know, 9am and selling them at 10am. So, it for me it's really a matter of trying to educate investors on on why we think so long term. But then also our, our, our primary modus operandi for investing kind of allows us to be long term because a lot of the things we invest in are almost all the things we enjoy. And now, our return of capital businesses. So, you know, we've kind of gone away from the basic Buffett framework of compounding your money over time, which of course, makes sense. Like, I'm not a total mathematical dummy, I get it. But those things get too expensive. And right now, return of capital is super inexpensive, and it's all a function of interest rates. And so, you know, one of the ways we get through it is we have a very high, you know, quote, unquote, dividend yield on our fund. And so our stocks might be down 20%. But if we get 12%, and dividends, you know, we're really only down 8%. And then we can kind of just keep clipping the coupons until the market comes around to seeing things the way that we do. So you know that that strategy is a little bit different, it's a little bit different than owning whatever Tesla $400, because if that stock goes down to 100 bucks, you kind of don't have an anchor to, to, to anchor yourself to the valuation. And so, you know, you might think it's going to be $100 for the next decade, and just sell it when you're down 66%, or whatever it might be. And in and we don't really have that we anchor ourselves to cash flow, we anchor ourselves to stock repurchases. And so when our stocks get really cheap, they, they fundamentally look really cheap. Like we had one stock in March, at the time, it was paying $3 and 12 cents in dividends. And the stock got down to I think $2 like, you know, that's well over 100%. So, you know, even after the fact that they cut the dividend 50%. But that's still a really good return. And so you know, that that kind of helps us whether that, and then when you buy a stock at a 60% dividend yield, you'd never want to sell that stock, right? Don't think forever, because right rate of return, essentially 60%. So. So that's kind of how, you know, we marry up the value and time differences. But but it's a challenge. And at the end of the day, like we have to, we have to pick the right clients. Like that's the only thing that's really going to protect us is having patient long term clients that believe in the things that we believe in. So I'll just say we're going to be right, we might be wrong. But if you can't get to the finish line, you won't know.

Brad
That's really powerful stuff. I appreciate that a lot. And it's funny listening to you talk about that, and having the pleasure of knowing you now for 14 years. It definitely feels to me like there is a connection between your personality and your approach to investing. Do you think that's that's a fair analysis?

Kris
Yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm slow twitch, I'm a long term thinker. I'm most comfortable kind of kind of kind of going against the crowd. So yeah, I mean, it fits a value investing philosophy, and a contrarian and a deep value philosophy, specifically to a tee. So it was just a good marriage between me and investing and value investing.

Brad
And do you think that finding a good fit between your own personality and a career that you're going to be passionate about is something that's maybe a little bit underrated out there, because I don't feel like I hear a lot of people talking about that.

Kris
I think it's so underrated, you know, if there's, there's two pieces of advice I have for my kids. The first one is, you know, marry the right person, because that's key. If you don't do that, nothing else is going to work out. The second one is really find it a career that you you want to get up and pursue every morning because then it's it's not the goals did not have a job. Like that's the goal. You know, so I really help my kids, like, explore different things, figure out what they're really passionate about. I was just lucky that I found what I'm passionate about very early in life, if and it fits my personality. But, you know, that's I don't think that's the case for a lot of people. And, you know, it's I think it's just key to happiness. Because the second you have to set the alarm to get up and go do a job you despise, which I've done. Don't get me wrong,

Brad
I've done that.

Kris
been there done that a lot of times. That's it's just it's not a good way to live your life. But you know, sometimes people have to do that. You have families to take care of you have things to protect. And, you know, we've had the advantage of, you know, being able to reach that highest level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, we're not still at the bottom two levels looking for food and shelter. So, you know, we are fortunate, but I would encourage at least young people to really spend the time to find what they're passionate about. And forget the Money, Money doesn't matter. It's all the passion,

Brad
it follows, right? That's one of the things that I like to say is, Money Follows. It never leads. And if you're going after a job, because you want to make a whole bunch of money, like you're probably in the wrong job, it's probably going to lead in burnout at best.

Kris
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Brad
You mentioned one of the things that this is probably not an angle you expect me to take here, but that's exactly why I want to go into it. So the first piece of advice you had to your children, is to marry the right spouse. So what what is the right spouse look look like so for I'm sure, there's a lot of people who are listening to this who are not married, Chris Kelly, tell us about what someone should seek out and their spouse?

Kris
Well, mine is about five foot nine, Hispanic, very dark complexion. That's what she looks like. But you know, from a personality standpoint, my wife is the polar opposite of me. I mean, polar, it couldn't be more different than me and my wife. But it works for us. Because, you know, she's an easy person, or as I'm a difficult person, she is very happy to, you know, make her whole life about family and kids. Whereas that's, you know, my top priority, but it, I also have, you know, priority 234 and five that are extremely important to me and her her whole priority is really just family and kids. So she stays home and takes care of her kids, and she's a great mom, she's a great wife. And then, you know, she doesn't care about money. You know, we've, we've been very fortunate financially over the past probably decade or more, and we've just never even come close to spending our money because we do not care about material possessions, which has put us in a position to do silly things like start, you know, for me to start my own business and do my own thing. And I understand, you know, that a lot of people don't don't have that if we had to have, you know, a new car and a 10,000 square foot house and, you know, vacation every year in Europe, like, these things would not be possible. But you know, she's very comfortable in her own skin. She's very happy with what she does, and, and she lets me kind of pursue my crazy ideas. So that's her in a nutshell.

Brad
So when you say you're a difficult person, how is that actually helped you in your career? And what do you But first of all, what do you mean by your difficult person?

Kris
Well, I don't think I'm a difficult person to anybody, but my wife and my kids, because they're with me all the time. But, you know, people that generally, I'm hesitant, I'm hesitant to label all people like this, but because it's, you know, me, you it's a lot of our friends, but I think people that are always striving are just perpetually unhappy people. That's why you're constantly striving, like you're looking, you know, for the next life, fix, you know, the next thing to trigger your brain and, and make you think that you're doing well, but it doesn't last long. You know, as you know, like, you get that fixed, like, man, there's no sitting back and just smoking a cigar and living your life on a beach. It might happen for a day or two, maybe a week, but that's about it. And then it's like, okay, on to the next thing, which just, it never allows you to kind of sit back and your I would say I'm almost never present. Like I never live in the present, which is extremely hard, I think for somebody like my wife who's constantly in the present. And so that that just makes me difficult, you know, wheels are always spinning, always looking for the next thing to do. But, you know, it's she could have picked a more difficult spouse.

Brad
I would agree. I would agree with that. I think Aaron chose extremely wisely. I do love what you're saying about how difficult it is to live in the moment. And I think back of the time, like it was nine years ago or something and I went go kart racing. And it was just the greatest thing that I'd done in a long time. And I kept trying to think to myself, why did I like that so much. It was because I was 100%. In the moment when I was going around the track. It was something new, it was something different. And you couldn't be thinking about anything else besides go kart racing as it happens to be as silly as that sounds. And I've come to appreciate like hey, you As you know, I love college football. And when I'm watching those college football games, it's the same thing. It's like holy cow. I actually am putting my brain at rest for a moment and just enjoying what I'm participating in. And that's that's pretty powerful thing to be able to finally get that break for ourselves.

Kris
Yeah, yeah, over the past probably seven or eight years I've been introduced to hunting from a buddy of mine. And so now I hunt twice a year I archery hunting, then I'm going to leave in two weeks to go rifle hunt for seven days and being out in the woods, you know, alone by yourself, because we'll split up and you'll be by yourself for four or five, six hours in a day, like you have to be present. Especially when you're a chicken like me, and you see a big, you know, bear printer, you see a bear in the woods, like it makes you present. So, you know, for a couple weeks of the year now, when we're out in the woods, and we go hot, like that's kind of been my one just connection with, you know, real reality. And then it definitely brings me present, but unfortunately, it's still only a couple weeks of the year.

Brad
Fair enough. Well, I see. I see. You're supporting the herd. Here. We're in a Wyoming hat. It's actually a bison that's supporting Wyoming. Right. So I understand that, that you own a CD dealership in Wyoming. How did that come to be?

Kris
How dare you not see do Polaris? Hello, jeez.

Brad
Let's take that back. You wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Kris
That's right. No See, do it's Polaris. I live up. Right? This business is up in like farm and ranching and hunting country. So CG does not exist. But

Brad
We can confused in general, you know, I think he meant to have a muskox hat on. It's a bison hat. You know, I should have said, Polaris, I said the other guy. So we're just confused in general. So hopefully, you can clarify how the heck this came to be for us. It's, it's,

Kris
it's all good man. Um, so I, Aaron and I were up in Wyoming with our kids, three years ago for the solar eclipse, in this little town of lander, Wyoming, which is about, I think about two hours from Jackson Hole was right in the path of totality for the eclipse, and we've got some great friends that live up there. So we went and stayed with them to watch the eclipse. And, you know, I saw this little Polaris dealership in this town of 9000, on the corner of Main Street. And I told my buddy, I was like, you know, that's, that's a pretty good little business. If, if that thing ever comes for sale, you let me know. And the owner called me like two weeks later and said, you know, he's interested in selling because he owns a bunch of Ace Hardware stores. And this was kind of an outlier business for him. And this was right when I was leaving Janis. And you know, because I've, I've always wanted to be Warren Buffett, I thought I wouldn't buy a business, even though it's a it's a, it's a fraction of the size of business he would buy. And I probably should have done a lot more diligence on it, instead of just trying to be Warren Buffett and, you know, have a handshake agreement. But so I ended up buying that, and it's it's been a really good business. Shockingly, you know, this year, it's been an amazing business, because everybody wants to get outside, but so they sell, you know, Rangers razors, we just started a rental business up there. And it's it's run by, it's run by a family, that a family of three, and then a good friend of theirs. And so it's I don't have to do too much with it. It doesn't take a lot of my time. And you know, it very similar to my public investments, it, it just kind of constantly shifts out cash, which is all I really care about. And I leave the details to other people. But it's been a fun little business down.

Brad
But I think that's super smart is knowing what you know, and knowing what you don't know. And you know, investing, and there's people up there who know how to run a Polaris dealership very successfully, and you let them do their thing, right. I mean, I think that's, that's how this works. And ultimately, it pays off when you're when you're smart. And sometimes times like 2020 can be a good thing for investing as well. Well, Chris, I got two questions here for you before before we let we before we let you go. You've been really generous with your time. So first question is, what's your biggest pet peeve?

Kris
Oh, I have a lot of pet peeves, as you know. probably my biggest pet peeve is is generally I think people are acting like they've done a lot more than they really have of you know, I don't like the stealth backs, slapping people you know, I don't like people who fool them. themselves into thinking that they're really good at what they do. And so, you know, I don't I don't, I don't know why it's such a big pet peeve for me, I guess, because I'm the polar opposite. And I'm just never happy with myself and super hard on myself. And so when I see these people that might also be this, like, you know, a little bit of envy in that, you know, I wouldn't mind spending a day slapping myself on the back. But generally, it's very annoying to me.

Brad
Yeah, I agree that sort of self aggrandizement piece, we can we can do without that. In fact, one of the one of our recent guests here on the herd have spoken, Jake Siegel, you can go back and listen that episode if you'd like. But he talks about something called the say to do ratio, which is is really important to have a high say to do ratio, it's actually would be a low said, no, no. Yeah, that would be a low, say to do ratio is basically, if you say, you're going to do something, do it. In this case, if you're saying that you've done something, have it be true, but no one wants to hear about you telling the world about how awesome you are and what what an extremely high self worth you have, whether that's mentally or financially or whatever, people just don't want to hear that. And you've always been extremely humble guy who has done great things. And one of many things, I think that we can we can learn from, from you, Chris. So appreciate that. Along the long journey here, final question for you is, what is the greatest piece of advice that you've received?

Kris
The greatest piece of advice that I've received, you know, I, I would probably have to go back to you know, what we talked about earlier in, in, in, this kind of comes from my introduction on to investing in the career that I chose, which was, you know, kind of a lot of my, like, career principles just come from Warren Buffett as a lot of value investors do. And the greatest piece of advice, like he, I think has given to me is, is again, just do something that you're passionate about, and that you love, because then you're never working. Like we spend so much time you know, quote unquote, working and trying to earn money and make a paycheck that if you don't enjoy it, you know, it, it statistically means you're not enjoying like 60 70% of your life, which is just asinine to me, like you have to figure a way out of that. So that that would probably be the best advice I ever got was like, it was from him and he's pass it on to a lot of people but you know, really just find that thing you're passionate about, and just do it and figure out how you can do it every day. Because it quite literally will change your life. Like like by definition has to change your life. So that's it's pretty powerful and i think it's it's something all you know, I'm also one of those people I don't think it's too late to change course but definitively for anybody you know, college high school and below like that's what that's what kids should focus on. Like find that find that passion.

Brad
Yeah, very, very well said. I think that's that's powerful advice. And Chris, really appreciate you being part of muskox heard we appreciate all your support for for the business and for most importantly getting people to get outside do their thing outside and follow their their passion. So really appreciate the time today and thanks again for for being with us here on the heard spoken.

Kris

You bet. Thank you very much.