O Sung Kwon, Business Leader, Joins The Herd Has Spoken Podcast. Episode 7

O Sung Kwon, Korean-American immigrant & business leader in the Aerospace Industry, sits down with Brad to talk about family, the challenges he faced as part of an immigrant family, and the importance & weight of honoring previous generations. You won't want miss O Sung as he talks about the dedication his father instilled in him and how that's helped him grow as a person and now as a business leader.

Enjoy the conversation between O Sung and Brad!

Brad Hoos

O Sung, welcome to The Herd has Spoken.

 

O Sung  

Thanks, Brad. appreciate you having me.

 

Brad  

Yeah, it's truly an honor. We've known each other for a long time, since 2006, I believe, maybe 2007. But I like to believe 2006. So, let's just dive into it. And I think I think going back in time is actually a good place for us to start. Because my understanding is that you're at your parents home, you've got what appears to be a set of encyclopedias, but it's actually history of your family. Can you tell us a little bit more about those quote, unquote, encyclopedias at your parents house?

 

O Sung 

Yeah, sure. And, you know, it's the history of the family as in a family tree, not like a written narrative of the family history. So you open it up, it's just branches, branches, branches, right all leading up to our first ancestor, in the Kwon clan, and I'm the 35th generation in my clan, so it is like an encyclopedia set, you can imagine how many books and volumes it would take to capture that that history, that genealogy going back 35 generations, it's pretty impressive. So you know, you'll see my father, who is married to all my siblings, all my aunts, uncles, it's very well organized. It's amazing how they came up with the system. 

 

Brad  

You certainly come by it, honestly. you're someone who has a fantastic attention to detail. And clearly your family, that's something that's important across the family. But I'd love to hear to you, in your own words. What does family mean to you? Because you're someone who has the ability to go back 35 generations, that's not something that most of us have. In fact, I'd be surprised if anyone listening can go back 35 generations. So you have a very unique view on being maybe even more connected to your, your past and your ancestors, and then a lot of us. So what does family mean to you?

 

O Sung  

I'll answer with a couple responses. Right. I think kind of the most immediate thought is the family that I have, right? I've got two young kids, married to my wife, Kiko. Kids are six and two, right? So I'm starting to learn that that nuclear family and what it means to provide for them, what it means to be a father, what it means to protect them and give them what they need for life. But I think you were alluding to this connection to this broader family. Right? And that's a very real thing for me. You know, growing up, it was always drilled into me that he you got to bring respect, you got to make your family proud. Right. Don't bring shame to your family. There's 35 generations on your shoulders. Right? Yeah. I don't want to call it a burden, but that expectation that you've got to live up to all the things that the prior generations have done, right, that your legacy is going to last forever, right? So, you know, it didn't matter if it was some small homework assignment or you know, the biggest project of my career, you treat everything with the same kind of intensity, the same kind of focus and the same kind of respect. You know, any, any venture deserves, right? And that's kind of been the motivating factor for me and many things that I do.

 

Brad  

So is it safe to say that for you growing up and to this day now, you're not trying to create a better life for you and your family has a primary goal, although I'm sure that's, that's important to you. But the primary goal for you is to honor your family and the 34 generations that came before you that are part of your family.

 

O Sung  

Yeah, and I, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say the two are divorced from each other. Right? I think, part of me honoring that legacy is taking care of my family, providing for my family and making sure that, you know, my son, my daughter, the 36th generation, that they're going to make a difference in this world. Right? 

 

Brad  

Right. 

 

O Sung  

And that comes from trying to raise a good family that that knows how to respect others, their their surroundings, you know, worked hard, tries to make an impact in this world. But you're right, I think, in the broader sense. I used to love watching Bruce Lee growing up, right, he was a, he was childhood hero of mine. And there was a quote, he had, it was like, you know, mortality is living a life worth remembering, right? And if you've done that, I'm probably wrong and your podcast viewer are probably like "he didn't get the quote right," or something to that effect. You know, that's how you leave your name in history books is doing something that makes an impact in this world. Right, that's my version of that quote. And I think that's really being driven by you know,  that upbringing of "people are watching you, you've got an entire clan that's watching." 

 

Brad  

Mm hmm. 

 

O Sung  

And that kind of expands to "hey, make a difference in this world. And then you've done your part in life."

 

Brad  

Yeah, I think there's, there's a lot to that, right. So by you doing well for yourself and your family that's bringing honor and as adding to your family's legacy. And I want to talk a little bit about your experience with your family. And growing up. So I know you grew up in suburban Chicago. And I know you're actually born in Korea. So what was that experience like? And can you maybe tell me a little bit what it was like what you saw your, your, your parents, and specifically your dad going through and sacrificing to to help you and your family be in an even better position for that next generation?

 

O Sung  

Yeah. So my parents got married and started having kids in the 70s. So it was, you know, 20ish years after the Korean War, and at that time Korea was, it was devastatingly poor. You know, you didn't have the economic growth yet, really, around the time of the '88 Olympics, that's when things kind of kicked off, right? It's a pretty, pretty great place to live now, but not back then. And add on top of that. My older brother, he has Down syndrome. And at that time in the 70s/80s in Korea, there wasn't much of an infrastructure for people like my brother. Contrast that to you know, here in the States where you've got special education programs and schools. You know, he's obviously much older now. He's my older brother, he's 2-3 years older than me. And, you know, obviously not in the school system anymore, but the adult work programs for people with disabilities, all these things that helped her enrich his life and give him the most out of life. None of that existed in Korea. And so that was a big motivator for my parents to move over here. You know, it was really what the objective of giving our family a better life. They don't come from a wealthy family by any means. Both of them came from really large families: five, six siblings on each side. Came over here to Chicago. Few bucks in the pocket. I mean, my father still loves telling stories when we look at our picture book. We'll see like these plaid bell bottoms look pretty hip. Yeah, I did. I went dumpster diving. I picked them out the first week I was in Chicago. So very humble beginnings. You know, both my parents for a long time work to blue collar jobs. My mother worked in a factory that makes dental instruments so she was working you know, machines presses to to make those instruments. My father, his first job, his first gig was making labels for milk cartons and milk jugs. You know, it was tough, you know, financially. I mean, we weren't begging, right? But financially, they were always working. 

 

Brad  

Right. 

 

O Sung  

Especially around the time when I was in high school as they're getting ready to put me and my younger sister through college, right. They're trying to save up. And, you know, my parents at one point, you know, they had, my mother, for example, had three jobs at one time. She worked in her day job at the dental instrument company, come home at night and paint, little tiny fish hooks, you know, these, paint them in fluorescent colors, a couple pennies apiece, and then on the weekends, both my father and my mother would go clean car dealerships. They'd rent a bunch of vacuums and cleaning supplies, and go do some janitorial services. So it was a unique upbringing. You know, I didn't get as much personal time, as you know, some of my friends did. But it's set an interesting example of what it means to work hard. You know, and my father, you know, I would say, you asked about my father in particular, you know, very proud guy. But I think there were moments in his life that cause him to be very introspective. And those are moments that I remember, because he imparted a lot of good life lessons. At those moments, one in particular was, my father got passed up for a job. You know, he, on paper seemed to be the more qualified candidate. 

 

Brad  

Sure. 

 

O Sung  

You know, and who knows, I don't know if it was language. I don't know if there was something else, you know. But, you know, he felt like, because he was an immigrant that's kind of what impacted his role. And of course, he's pissed, you know, in the beginning, any proud guy would be in a little bit of swearing, a little bit of drinking.

 

Brad  

It happens to the best of us, right?

 

O Sung  

Yeah, yeah. No, I can I can personally attest to that. Right. But, you know, when you calmed down, we talked about it. Because I was taking it personally. Right. You know, yeah. Yeah. Growing up, you always see your father as like this invincible superhero. And this is a moment where I saw that image of that invincible superhero and there was a little crack in it

 

Brad  

A little vulnerability. 

 

O Sung  

A little vulnerability. Exactly. So I think he recognized that and we talked and he said, you know, what, what's important is your reaction here, right? We as immigrants, we may have to work twice as hard to get what we need or get what we want, right? We have to overcome the language barrier, we have to assimilate with the culture. Those are all things that growing up in America, if you were a native American, you wouldn't have to deal with, right. But that's our lot in life, we chose to do that that was a conscious decision. So let's not mope about it. Right, let's be positive about it and move on. Man, that was a real, real powerful lesson.

 

Brad  

Yeah, I mean, you touched upon a couple of things here that I'd like to maybe underscore and dig into a little bit, I think that the first thing I think a lot of listeners can relate to, if they're parents, is the fear of not being able to spend enough time with their children, because what I'm hearing you say is, you didn't get a ton of time with your parents because they had to work, non-stop as immigrants in the US to try to provide for you, and a sibling with down syndrome and the family that just required a hell of a lot of work and effort. And it's really hard as immigrants because a lot of your degrees, you know, even if they've been earned overseas, don't translate here in the in the US. And so it's tough to get a job. And the fact that this made such a positive impact on you, I think one of the old adage is "do as I say, not as I do," but we all know people learn the opposite, right? We learn by seeing what people are doing. And you know. This is one of the things I hope listeners can take from what you're saying, which is "wow", like you, you're someone who's tremendously successful, you know, went to Caltech for engineering school, went to Chicago Booth for his MBA works for a big aerospace company now doing fantastic things, spent seven years at McKinsey, the top management consulting firm in the world, arguably. And, and you did a lot of that because of hard work. And you learn that from watching your parents, not necessarily having to spend all that time with them. And of course, like time with your kids is good, don't get me wrong. But I think this is such a great reminder to parents that what you do day-to-day, where you spend your time is going to impact your children. a hell of a lot more than something that you're saying when you're spending time together. And to me, that's just a great testament to the type of father that that you were blessed with, and the opportunity that we all have in front of us to make sure our actions reflect what we want to teach to others. So I think that's really powerful.

 

O Sung  

Really well said, you know, and you know, what we didn't talk about as much as what we did outside of the time. You know, my parents were working, you know, and it was limited, but when we had that time, we made the best of it. My father was a huge Cubs fan and therefore, I'm a huge Cubs fan. 

 

Brad  

Go Cubs. 

 

O Sung  

My mother worked. Go cubs, right. And my mother worked a few blocks away from Wrigley. So we are always I mean, we grew up in that area, right. I grew up and moved to the suburbs when I was in my teenage years. So we're North siders, from for most of my early years, and we were always at Wrigley because we were, it was just a neighborhood thing for us. You know, and those are the things that I remember. And when we weren't there, you know, my dad was religious about videotaping every single company. I remember one time it was a huge thunderstorm and like the cable went out, and you can watch his cubs game, he was pissed. And he was like, his broken English calling the cable company, you need to fix this now, right? This was when the Cubs sucked, now, you know, they're a lot better. So it's fun, but it's, you know, I attribute that that to my father, right? Those all those fun memories. It's been fantastic.

 

Brad  

Yeah, no, that's, that's wonderful. And one other thing that you mentioned that I think is really cool, is how your father handled adversity. So first, like, yeah, we're all gonna get, we're all gonna get mad, we're all gonna hear, you know, a dad say "sh*t", when they hammer the finger or they're upset. I mean, that happens, right? I mean, in an ideal world, we wouldn't do that. But it's human to experience emotion, I don't think there's anything wrong with experiencing emotion. And, you know, letting your family members and those close to you see that you're gonna be upset, there's things that bother you. And, and sure as heck, getting passed up for promotion isn't as worthy of some emotion is human. So there's nothing wrong with that. But to take that as a teaching moment, you know, especially know as an immigrant to say, no, okay, this is unfortunate, but what can we learn from this, and what we can learn from this is that we need to work twice as hard. We need to continue to be, you know, patient, we need to see things through and recognize that if we keep doing if we keep working hard and keep doing things, right, good things will happen. And more so than that lesson in particular, I think it's being able to recognize when you're in a tough situation and communicate that openly to your children. I mean, that's something that's super powerful. And I'm sure his left, you know, a really big impression on you obviously, as you're talking about your father and some of the impact that that he's he's had on you that that's still something that you're feeling today.

 

O Sung  

Really well said. Really well said.

 

Brad  

Yeah, I would love to you know, kind of hear maybe from from you in some of the more more challenging moments or some of the the down points that you had, as you've gone through your your career, right. So everyone, regardless of what job where they're in, what profession is where they're looking for a job, like we've all been through those those challenging periods, but I think like for someone like you, it's easy from the outside to look and be like, "yeah, O Sung, he's super successful. I know that guy is doing great things. And I do know, you're doing great things. But I also know that that's not the way the world works. It's not a success only journey. And there's, there's challenges along the way. So I'd love to hear maybe a moment where you've been particularly challenged, you know, whether it's personal professional, whatever the case may be, maybe some times where you've, you've experienced a gut punch.

 

O Sung  

You know, you mentioned Caltech. And whenever I hear Caltech, you know, the half of it is this fondness because I had a great experience there. But the other half is, is like I tremble, because it was, it was such a tough experience for me. You know, undergrad, I went to Illinois for mechanical engineering, very well suited to kind of the way I think I like to visualize things, gear, structures, what have you, right, but it's easy for me to get my head around stuff like that. Contrast that to what I studied at Caltech was electrical engineering. And at the time, you know, I was working for aerospace company, designing radar systems. So it made sense to get into electrical engineering that's kind of the company's focus for and there was... you don't see electricity you don't see electromagnetic waves you don't see current, right. So it just, it wasn't how my brain was wired. On top of that, you know, I didn't really have a foundation in electrical engineering. I tried to avoid as much of that during my undergrad. And here I am at Caltech, a very, you know, prestigious school with a lot of kids a ton smarter than me with the background in electrical engineering. So it was tough. Just to just to keep up, you know, I was taking classes at the local community college in the evening, on the electrical engineering kind of basics.

 

Brad  

You're going to Caltech for a master's degree. And you're starting at the local community college to try to get the basic entry level knowledge to be successful.

 

O Sung  

That's right. Yeah, exactly. So I'm in there. And it's like, you know, it's that they don't have fancy labs like Caltech, it felt like a high school science lab. And I'm sitting there creating circuits, right, that's how I was trying to get up to par.

 

Brad  

That's scrappy. 

 

O Sung  

You know, and look, it wasn't all me had a ton of friends, there a ton of professors that that just invested their time in helping me. On top of that, going to work, the commute, you know, where I was working by LAX up to Pasedena where Caltech is. That round chip was an hour and a half a day. So it was really, really challenging that the two years that I did it, I mean, there were times where I literally was walking down stairs and blacking out. Well worth it. Because I think it was, it was like being in a crucible and coming out of it. It just made me that much. Not even around the the education itself. But just as a person, as a man as a "here's what you're made of you can do it". It was a formative experience.

 

Brad  

So I want to come back to you getting out of that crucible. But for a second, I got asked a question that a lot of people listening, I'm sure have to ask, too. So you you were blacking out as you're going downstairs. So what does that mean? Like you hadn't slept in days? Or what? What's going on at this low point at this low moment when you're when you're at Caltech getting your ass kicked, and try to just get that education that you so dearly wanted?

 

O Sung  

Yeah, so my company paid for my school. Working while I was going to school, and you know, a lot of schools I think, they have programs set up for working professionals. You could go in the evenings, more flexible hours, Caltech didn't have that. Like I think they just assumed you go to Caltech, you're going full time, right? So it was getting up at three in the morning driving down to work putting in eight hours, right? It was a full time I was working probably about 30 hours a week. So call it you know, 75% kind of hours. 

 

Brad  

Sure. 

 

O Sung  

Going down working, racing back, because obviously I can't do morning classes, right? So I'm trying to cram in all the afternoon classes, get there for the afternoon classes, then you've got to do all your homework sets and your lab work in the evening. So very little sleep. You know, I had a fast food rotation, Taco Bell Mondays, like Carl's Jr. Tuesday, right? So on and so forth. I was like, crap, I wasn't working out none of that stuff. And, and yeah, there were just days where I'm like walking down the stairs at work. And I would just grab the rail, because the you know, I would black out and sit down for a few minutes, just until my senses came back to me. 

 

Brad  

Oh, man, that's crazy. So really challenging experience, you know, you really put yourself out there, you know, just for folks who might not have the context of LA, you're basically adding at least an hour and a half of commute time to this every day, in addition to working full time and going to two colleges at the same time, including one that's as good as it gets when it comes to engineering. So you're stretched hella thin at this at this moment. But somehow one foot in front of the other day by day, week by week, you know, you just keep laying the bricks until at the end, you've got a wall, you've got that degree. So what do you what do you take from that time? Now when you look back at it, so what characteristic that you use today? Do you feel like you built during those low times? Because I feel like there's so many of us that were going through these low times. And it's tough to know what the hell we're going to get out of it. But the reality is, I mean, that's when you're growing, right? Like, when you're in the midst of those toughest times and you're finding inches, you're finding a way to go just one more round. And that's that's really when you're growing as a person you have no idea because it's just really hard at that moment. So now that you're on the other side, you've come out of that crucible. Where do you think you've improved as a man

 

O Sung  

You said it very well, because you know, it is a crucible. I mean, it almost feels like the term that comes in mind is your being forged, right? You're in this heat and you're getting, you know, hammered and slammed and shaped. And then you know, at times you don't feel like you're on, you feel like you're shrinking, right? But you come out of it and you're just you're rock solid, right? It's just that much better because of that experience. What I took away from it. And it's interesting, because at the time, I thought what I needed to take away from it was all that electrical engineering, theory and calculations and principles. The funny thing is, I never spent a day in my life working as an electrical engineer. I graduated, and I got put into systems engineering, right, which is, you know, you're supposed to be kind of more of a jack of all trades, very familiar with different engineering disciplines. It made sense, right? Because I had this multi disciplinary background for engineering. But really, all that stuff I learned didn't matter. What mattered was that experience. Right. So I think my advice for people going through, you know, that kind of similar forging experience is persevere, you know, as you said, just one step in front of the other, you will come out of it, you will become stronger for it. But while you're doing it, don't be too hard on yourself, because that experience is wonderful. 

 

Brad  

Yeah. So as you know, son, I'm the son of a Navy captain. And so my father fought in, in two different wars, including time of Vietnam, and one of the things he used to always say is, you know, war is hell, and you just, you just can't appreciate it until you've seen it. And one of the things I admired about my father so much was, when big things happened, you know, if a car was wrecked, or something meaningful happened, he's always extremely calm. And he might have a temper about small stupid stuff back in the day. And as I've gotten a little bit older, I've had a chance to reflect on that a little bit. And I'm convinced that's because he went through war. I mean, literally went through war and saw people being killed and saw, you know, people spending every ounce of waking energy trying to kill another person. And when you have that sort of perspective, and you've been through that, you realize that you're 17 year old son, you know, running into a rock is not that big of a deal. You know, he's safe, he's sound. And I think in in our career, you know, when you go through hard times, and when you get the sh*t kicked out of you, it just makes you it just makes you be able to understand and appreciate things with the amount of perspective that's appropriate. So you can detach from the situation, I know, this is something that, you know, you're you're a big fan of is the whole idea of like, go to the balcony, right. And that's something that we learned at University of Chicago... we are turning this into a University of Chicago podcast. But I think there's a great lesson: in business or in any, you know, tense situation, try to detach from the situation and get some perspective. So I think what you're saying is, really resonates with me in terms of the perspective that you gain by, you know, being forged in that crucible. And that's, that's powerful stuff, for sure. I think we can all relate to that. Okay, I want to I want to switch gears here and wrap up with kind of a few last questions for you. So, number one: is what what is it that O Sung today knows that 20 year old O Sung did not know.

 

O Sung  

It's a good question. I'd have to say, it's that, you know, the world is a big place. Right? And there are many paths that you can take, be open, just continue to be curious. And it will lead you down, you'll experience wonderful things. If you could have a positive attitude about it. You know, I gave one example of how there was a little bit of a twist where I came out of Caltech thinking I was gonna do electrical engineering and didn't do a day of it, right. But there's been a lot of that in my life in my career, it's been a bit of a random walk, right? You know, I went to business school to get I would go back into industry, you know, thought I would do kind of a corporate role, but found out about consulting, right. Thought I'd do that for a couple years. That ended up being seven years. And I thought that was going to be the life for me, you know, I enjoy consulting quite a bit. And then I had started my family, right about the time my son was a year old and you know, that lifestyle just wasn't gonna work out. I didn't think me growing up, you know, Chicago, LA, you know, living in San Francisco and moved to some small town here in the East Coast. But that's where I am today. Right. And none of that was planned. You know, the advice I often got was he write your resume from you know what you want it to be in five years, right? Right. And go and try to hit all those steps so that you can make it there. Visualize that future. That never worked out for me, I tried that. And it's always been something different. But I don't regret it one bit. Because every experience have been rewarding. So I would tell my 18 year old self, don't stress too much. About the twists and turns in life. Work on problems that are interesting, work hard, so that you can make a difference. And everything else will take care of itself 

 

Brad  

And burn the five year plan because it doesn't mean anything anyways. 

 

O Sung  

Burn it. Don't stress about it

 

Brad  

Yeah, I love it. All right. So what is your biggest pet peeve?

 

O Sung  

Ah, so my biggest pet peeve would be I think, personally, in my personal life, it's when my when I see my kids procrastinating, it drives the heck out of me. You know, they don't get the concept of, "hey, if I just spend the time doing this, now, it's an investment because it frees up my time to go play or write". You know, professionally, I think it's people that just kind of react. You know, I'm a big fan of taking a step back, like you said, go to the balcony, look at a problem dispassionately, try to structure how you think about the problem, how you go solve it, and don't be emotional and just react. That, I would say is my pet peeve. Professionally.

 

Brad  

I love it. I love it. Well, here MuskOx as you know, we're all about getting outside, living the adventure, whatever that may mean. And this means a lot of different things to different people. So O Sung, what is roaming freely mean to you?

 

O Sung  

Roaming freely?

 

Brad  

Meaning just like what do for you for adventure to get outside and recognizing that for so many of us, we've got a lot of commitments, and you'd love to do a lot of different things. But we're going after that day to day adventure these days.

 

O Sung  

Yeah, you know, a lot of it is tied up with my kid, right? Because the current environment with COVID there isn't much interaction outside the family. Plus, you know, your kids kind of have you as their friend as their teacher as their provider. Right. So, things I've been doing a lot lately is souping up. Nerf guns. 

 

Brad  

Nice. 

 

O Sung  

You know, playing Nerf War with my kid. I did go golfing for the first time this year. You know, I actually live in a neighborhood where there's a golf course. And we typically go two to three times a month. This year, I hadn't gone at all until a couple days ago. And I took my kid out. That was a ton of fun. So yeah, pretty simple stuff. But it's awesome. Got to have that balance. Right?

 

Brad  

For sure. For sure. Yeah. And balance obviously changes. Last question for you, O Sung. So what's the best piece of advice that you've received? Whether it's from a mentor, a parent, a coach? Me? I'd love to hear what's the one piece of advice that really resonates with you?

 

O Sung  

Well, look, I would say, you know, I do want to say I learned a ton from you. Oh, come on. No, no, no, no shooting around here. For the listeners, you know, Brad is the most dependable, got your back, I don't care what time it is. I'll be there to support you kind of guy there is so you know. I told you my earlier point about being very trying to be very dispassionate, remove myself from a problem be very logical about it. Sometimes it's a double edged sword, right? Because I'm not a super emotional person. Sometimes it's harder for me to connect with people and that emotional level, right? And you're kind of one you're one of my role models when it comes to like how to best connect with people. And not in a cheesy way, right. But just in a genuine way. This conversation you and I are having right now. We could be having this at a bar. And it's that same level of interest that you take in people. So yes, that's a good piece of advice I got from you. The other thing I would say is what I already mentioned, right? One of my mentors here my current role, right? Very successful in the company. And being new to the company. I've been there now for years, but I asked him when I was there earlier on, "hey, you know, what's, what's your secret for success?" And he said, Look, don't worry too much about the politics. Don't worry about all that noise. Put your head down. Work hard. You know, if you're smart, you'll do a good job. If you do a good job, people want you to work the hardest problem, the most interesting problems. If you're working the hardest, most interesting problems, people are gonna notice you and all that just kind of feeds itself, right? So as long as you do that everything else will take care of itself, which, which I said earlier, but that's the thing that stuck with me resonated with me the most.

 

Brad  

Well, I couldn't think of a better note to end on. I mean, work hard, do good work. You're going to get noticed it's going to pay off in the long run, right? Don't get caught up in the day to day BS. Don't get caught up in political nonsense. Do your job. Do it well, good things will happen.

 

O Sung  

And connect with people like Brad.

 

Brad  

I appreciated, O Sung. At MuskOx, we live in a herd. So it's important to have fantastic, you know, friends around you, and we're certainly fortunate to have you part of the MuskOx Herd and I'm fortunate to have you as part of mine. So O Sung, thanks so much for the time today. Fun catching up with you as always, and we will see you on the other side.

 

O Sung  

Thank you.


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